I'm John Buckman, Founder of Decent Espresso - AMA
15/01/2021 - Introduction
I dream up, design, code, and run companies (not always to make money) that cause some heck and which have a social benefit. I've founded a few companies: Magnatune (fair trade music online), BookMooch (global book swap) and Lyris (email discussion groups), but my main gig these past 5 years has been Decent Espresso. I've also been on the board of Creative Commons and was the former Chairman of the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) for 5 years.
This older profile of me (pre-Decent) in the UK newspaper “The Independent” offers a humorous and quirky portrait. http://magnatune.com/p/buckman_independent.pdf
Elsewhere, I've been described as a “cautious catalytic combustor: taking time, trawling deep, then sparking off reactions in a specific crucible of activity.”
Now in my waning years, I prefer to play with food, code, think up provocative projects, enjoy life, code, make coffee, and code.
Decent Espresso is building the espresso machine I've always wanted. Technology applied to a difficult food problem: simplicity, precision, repeatability, and a mind-blowing end result.
Do you see opportunity to lower the cost of ownership of quality espresso machines? Will Decent ever be able to sell a sub-$1k machine that makes great coffee?
Regarding cost of good machines: YES I think two things will happen to make the cost of what we do come down:
From a technical standpoint, what's something you wish the Decent was capable of but you haven't been able to crack just yet?
Making shots well with flow profiling, is something that was “all the buzz” when we were designing the DE1. That's what Rao, Perger and Hoffman all wanted. They were convinced that it would ban “sink shots”.
Turns out to be quite a bit harder to do than ever thought… A few things turned out to make flow profiling really hard:
Gagne https://coffeeadastra.com/coffee-blog/ recently provided a theoretical framework a few weeks ago for getting flow profiling to work, via “adjusting profiles” that change flow based on what peak pressure is on a shot, and then make a new profile from that point. It looks really promising, but it's very early days still.
You mentioned flow profiling being the big thing - will the solution be software so that existing machines can be upgraded?
If there is a solution, then yes, it will be a free software upgrade. Big IF the moment, but I'm optimistic. There's nothing the Decent needs to do on the hardware side, I think, to solve this issue.
Do you see machine learning as a viable way to do profiling? I.e. “self-generated” profiles?
Yes, absolutely yes. We already have machine learning in the firmware, but we disabled it at the moment, though it used to be in there. It was there to “learn” about the temperature accuracy of your shot, and change the temperature of the water we input on the next shot, to get to your goal. It worked well. However, we disabled it because I didn't like that it made decisions for you, that weren't necessarily making better coffee, just “better curves”. So now, we have temp profiling so you can control the input water temp.
Barney's “Metric Skin” totally rethinks how recipes work, and auto-generates them based on more traditional ways of thinking about coffee (time, ER, etc….). It's super cool, and coming soon.
Despite already doing so much, are there any 'crazy' features or design/manufacturing ideas that you would wish to see possible in 5-10 years?
I don't see any more “low hanging fruit” for Decent, which is why, after making 2500 DE1 of various models, I'm planning on making 4000 DE1 of this current v1.4 model. There's nothing really wrong with it. Any improvements we want to do will be quite hard and require a lot of R&D. I've given my two “inventing geniuses” (Ray and Ben) a year of reprieve, where they don't have to ship anything, and can focus on longer term R&D, with new things that'll come out in 2022, if the R&D works out (no guarantee there).
I do have a lot planned for the firmware and app, and some of those things should help make better coffee. I feel that we're on the cusp of figuring out how to make flow profiles shots, for instance. And adaptive profiles might allow the machine to correctly auto-adjust to changes in grind and dose. But to do that last one correctly, we're going to need a programming language inside the DE1 itself, to change the recipe in real-time. We're working on that, and it'll come later in 2021. Gagne (and others) can then use that to push their research further.
The approach to making espresso and having real time feedback with the Decent is undoubtedly a game changer. Are there any other developments in the world of coffee (grinders, roasters, processing etc.) where you foresee a similar paradigm shift in the future?
Making a good puck is still waaaay too hard. The Niche revolutionized espresso for me, by finally making a pro-grade puck, at an affordable price. Before the Niche, the majority of our customers were having problems caused by their grinders. Now… everyone knows that their grinder needs to be AT LEAST as good as the Niche or it's not going to give them a good drink.
Grinder makers don't seem to have gotten their head around the fact that they need to output a fluffy pile of coffee all around the basket. It needs not-too-much of a peak, lots of coffee grounds in the sides, and it absolutely must be symmetrical. I really think that most bad espresso is caused by the grounds being badly placed in the basket. It's great to see his amount of progress on the brewing side, do you think we'll see the same kind of innovation on the grinding side?
Innovation on the grinding side is I think blocked by the reseller-focussed approach that grinders are sold through. Niche was able to innovate so, by selling direct, and bypassing that costly toll bridge, and giving consumers something they wanted, and resellers had no interest in. The biggest innovators in tech (Apple, Google) all go directly to the customer. If you go through a middleman, innovation will be stymied.
Decent has done a good job addressing the fluid dynamics and heat transfer aspects of making espresso. Is there work in progress regarding bean chemistry, roasting levels, particle shape and size distribution, etc.?
Ouch, wow, lots packed into that question. Regarding roast level, I've struggled for years with light roasts, and it's only recently that I had my AHA MOMENT that solubility and puck integrity were the two by far most important variables. I wrote that up as the “Four Mother Recipes” article https://www.instagram.com/p/CISixgHBtdT/
Regarding particle shape, I was “well chuffed” (that's a good thing) that Jonathan Gagné got enough Patreon funding to buy a Decent. It took him a bit of time to get going with it, because he had super- esoteric SSP “no fines” burrs on his EK43. He just couldn't bring himself to be normal. :-D Gagné is the god of “particle size” in coffee, with a book coming out on the Physics of pour over coffee, his app for analyzing ground coffee particles and his blog. So… I am very hopeful there that he'll make discoveries.
Is there anything in the works for a “dual boiler” machine for home use where one can steam milk and make espresso at the same time?
We're never going to do a dual boiler, because we would give up so much about the Decent that is better. Real time temperature control, for instance, where was can instantly adjust for the cooling effect of the grounds (which are room temp, and represent 1/3rd of the pucks mass during extraction). Most people don't realize that because a puck is at room temperature at the start of brewing, your espresso STARTS to extract in the 85oC range, if you're lucky. And usually ends too hot.
People have obsessed about stable water output from a boiler, but it's brew temperature that's actually important.
Another area where I feel a boiler would be a step backwards is steam. Yes, the current DE1 steams slower than a pro boiler machine, but the steam is much drier (160oC vs 130oC), and has much higher shearing power (3 bar, typically, vs 1.5 to 2 bar). This makes a much finer and more stable microfoam. The DE1XXL model coming next month has 40% more power, and steam pressure is now in the 4 to 5 bar range, which is both fast and makes super fine microfoam. Also, very little dilution of the milk from our steam approach, thanks to the ultra-high temperature and low water content (typically, 50% less water than a boiler, to heat your milk)
How would adding a boiler for steam affect what you have now?
Boilers, for safety reasons, cannot go above 128oC, because they're holding the steam. We heat on demand, and we can go to 170o, like the Slayer Steam does, because we're open to atmosphere, and there are no explosion concerns like there are with boilers. If you were to ever recommend a machine that's NOT a Decent, which would it be?
For non-Decent, I am a fan of the Breville dual boiler. On sale, you can get it for less than USD$1000. It has built in preinfusion, and electrically heated group head, and stable water. I cry a bit every time someone buys an E61 for more money, as the BDB is just so much better, for about half the money.
The BDB has forced us to “up our game” and provide a lot of value to justify our much higher price.
Besides the BDB I'm a big fan of the Flair manual espresso machine. It's super cheap, and while it's a bit of a fuss, you CAN make excellent espresso out of it, ironically much better espresso than (I think) most any flat-9-bar boiler machine. The Cafelat Robot and Espresso Forge are also super cool and I recommend them to those who want to get into espresso. What got you into coffee?
Coffee is a “little luxury” that you can enjoy every day. It does you no harm, and starts you out on the right foot every day. Nothing else has those two qualities (well, except maybe really good bacon!)
Who is your favorite roaster to get beans from?
As far as drinks go, I tend toward a flat white. For beans, that's so geographically specifically but I get my beans from the former Australian champion Scottie Callaghan https://fineprint.hk/who-we-are who lives here in HK.
I've often enough come across comments about how the Decent is a geek's dream machine in a negative way. There are many people turned off by the general visual design of the machine and the seemingly over-engineered UI. I know that the new grouphead partially addresses that and that demand outstrips supply so far, but are there long term plans for that customer base?
First of all, if you want traditional 9 bar, get a Linea Mini. It looks great, it's solid, it has the right brand. Decent would never be able to compete with them in that traditional, conservative (I mean that in a positive way) field.
Or, get a spring-less lever machine. They'll make much better coffee than the Linea Mini (sorry, but it's true) still be ultra-traditional, but you get far more control and power. As far as the tablet UI goes, and it being too geeky… there already are simpler skins for the DE1, that offer the traditional buttons and nothing else. And some people use that. However, most people, even and especially beginners, find that the screen is helpful. And yes, the group head controller, specifically having physical buttons to make coffee, makes a big difference to how you perceive the machine when you use it. I never really felt the DE1 was a “toy” at all, until I got the group head controller, and since then I do feel that way about tapping on-screen to start an espresso. I really prefer the hardware buttons.
On the other side of the spectrum, transparent Decent with RGB led when?
Regarding the transparent case, we sell it now. Regarding blingy LEDs, some other customers have done this, but as it happens, we were working on that yesterday, as I bought an LED controller that responds to sound. Fabrice is today soldering it up and I hope to have photos and video in a few days.
Would you be willing to comment on why the Diaspora is closed to non-owners? I feel like it would be a good place for prospective buyers to converse with owners and ask questions.
EXACTLY for this reason: “a good place for prospective buyers to converse with owners.”
I don't want that. I want a forum free of salesmanship. Where we just talk about coffee, and how to make the machine better.
Besides, there already exist several forums, the USA, UK, AU, Germany, with many Decent owners, where you can ask them questions. There's HB https://www.home-barista.com/advice/ but more generally, we have a link to all the forums we participate on, at the top of the decent homepage https://decentespresso.com/
From everything that you've learned about making espresso through your journey so far with Decent, what have you learned about what's actually important and what's not that important when making espresso? (eg. tamping pressure/tamping consistency/dosing/distribution).
Tamping pressure: anything over 5lbs of pressure is fine, and there is no such as thing as “over tamping”
Puck prep: it's gotta be level before you tamp. And… “less is more”. Generally, the more you fuss with your puck to make it ok, the worse the espresso will be. Watch the pros: they do a few tap & tilts of the portafilter, 5 seconds, and blammo… great espresso. Measuring: if you don't measure each step of what you do, you won't make progress. Espresso is so “twitchy” that little changes in antecedents will make a big change in your drink, so unless you hold all things constant, you won't know if any change you made was for the best.
So, you gotta, you just have to,
Where did the name “Decent” come from?
I was walking down Main Street in my little California town and a roaster had a sign that read “The best beans in the world” and I felt that attitude embodied everything I didn't like.
Whenever I travelled, I would look for good coffee shops and hope to get a coffee I enjoyed drinking. It was surprisingly difficult. Just give me a “decent espresso” in the morning, I thought. Well, there it is…
And finally, I dislike companies saying they're awesome. Give it a break. Nobody believes that stuff. If my company said we were “decent' we might have a chance at being believed. If it's better than that, well…. that's for other people to say, not for us.
Why does the machine click and make strange noises when heating up?
When the DE1 powers up, it's booting, like a computer, and self-checking everything. For example, we pump some water in, then see if there is any pressure, and if the water temp sensor has moved. We check that flush works (drop in pressure).
On v1.3 and newer machines, there is a 12-step process of bootup, which is indicated on the LEDs of the “clock face” of the group head controller. That way, if something fails on powerup, we know what it was, based on the LED that is lit.
You say puck prep is the most important - and having a level puck is a key. Yet I've seen your video where you say you don't like the round heavy “distribution tools” - which to my mind are more levellers before tamping. Does your machine give you any data on the levellers? Does that mean you don't see a need for the distribution technique using fine wire/needles?
Ben Champion and I have have both designed our own distribution tools, and we came to very similar results, though he preferred 0.35mm wires, and I preferred 0.4mm wires. (grin). We then merged our results and collaborated on a tool. We're just about to start shipping that tool http://decentespresso.com/rake
Coffee researcher and DE1 owner Stephane Ribes has done an extensive analysis of coffee preparation techniques, and written up the results with lots of pretty charts. It's on the Diaspora forum only (sorry!). Bottom line: WDT with wires around 0.4mm is the best. Raking 0.4mm wires is a close second. Virtually everything else makes things worse. The Decent is a great machine and some comments have been made about grinders and how important they are to making good coffee. Decent had a grinder and discontinued it. Do you have any intention of re-entering the grinder market. Why would you or not?
We spent about $1 million designing a grinder, over 2 years time, and made a working model. In doing so, we found a number of HARD TO SOLVE problems that …. well… virtually nobody has solved and that would be quite expensive, if we could solve them at all. We had our own grinder because there was no under-$1000 grinder that was acceptable for espresso at the time, and that was a problem for us. We sourced and modified a 64mm-flat-burr grinder and sold it fairly cheaply, but it was not our own, and the quality just wasn't what we wanted for ourselves. The Niche just blew it away, and removed our problem. So no, we're not going into the grinder biz.
What drives your push for transparency?
Regarding transparency: as a programmer, I we entering the workforce just as open source was coming in. I ran my first company on Linux 0.8, and managed to get rid of my expensive Sun Microsystems server. There were problems with Linux, but me and my programmers could fix them, for instance by rewriting big parts of the kernel (porting async tcpip and lock from freebsd, redoing how threads were allocated). I loved, with an open device, having the power to fix things myself. There was no block. I also loved, in an open ecology, how other people joined in, and we all benefited from each others contributions.
As far as obscuring: I want to have a private life, and my employees do too, so we don't talk about ourselves.
At one point in my life, I spent 3 horrible months, full-time chasing down a “memory leak” that was causing our main product to crash. I finally found the problem, and it was in a commercial implementation of the C++ STL (they were leaking file handles). When I reported the bug to them, they said they already knew about it, and uh… here's the fix. But they had never admitted to this before, nor provided the fix. I was so furious at having stressed my brains out for 3 months, that I vowed never to use licensed/closed software again.
I'm saving up for a high end machine and this thread really made me consider the DE1 but I guess my question is, this is a big investment in what's supposed to be a high quality piece of equipment and unlike something like a Silvia that I can source virtually every part I will need from a number of places, the DE1 seems to have a lot of proprietary stuff (which is what sets it apart from the competition, to be fair) and electronics, so naturally I'm worried about serviceability and support in the long run.. I'm sure you get this question a lot but I'd like to know how you reassure the would be customers that have the same reservations as me?
I think that anything I write to you about this, will be (and should be) interpreted as marketing/sales b.s. You really need to ask Decent owners this question, on a forum such as Home Barista, for instance. https://www.home-barista.com/advice/
What is the current approximate time from purchasing a machine to it landing at a buyers doorstep in the US?
As of today, about 4 weeks.
Since Decent machines are connected to network and internet were there any incidents of breaching into the machines by unauthorized people that you can tell us?
Firstly: the DE1 is NOT NOT NOT connected to the internet or a network. There is no requirement to have a wifi connection on to use the DE1, except to download a firmware/app upgrade. I am hugely against IOT devices that require an internet connection, it just makes them less reliable.
Secondly, as far as unauthorized use goes, the app runs on an Android tablet, and is as safe or secure as any Android tablet with wifi off can be. Current DE1 are shipped with Android 9.1, which is quite good. But even with Android 5.1 (that went with the DE1 v1.0) we've never had a security issue. Ray (the hw designer) and I are super, super paranoid about security.
Another question, as a software engineer how hard was to learn hardware design and design your own PCBs and other components? Where did you start?
As far as PCB design, and doing hardware, there was no way that I, a back-end programmer (C++, SQL, that sort of thing) was going to design hardware. I had to find my equal (or better!) and I did that in the person of Ray Heasman, who should be credited as the inventor of the DE1. He, helped along with a rotating cast of mechanical engineers, did the PCBs, firmware, and really, all the basic inventing.
The partnership I have with Ray is a great one. I take care of the business, alot about coffee, and all coding that isn't firmware, and he does all the hardware and firmware.
But a few years ago Ben Champion appeared on Home Barista, doing amazing fluid dynamic simulations of group heads, and I hired him. Ben is also seriously into espresso, and it helped tremendously to have the 3rd most important person in the creation of the machine, to round out our skill set. Since then
, Charles Temkey appeared as well, after completely taking apart (to single components) the DE1 he bought, and I hired him too, as he knows so much about repairs and reliability.
What was the decision process in moving the company to Hong Kong?
It's totally by accident, and caused by our being scammed by an intermediary, after I'd already moved the key engineers to Asia.
We used to have a kind of “soap opera video diary” called “Spilling the Beans” that told our story.
Take a look at these two videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8fSEsM_7vQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA8GZ54iMuQ for the key parts about the scam, and how we ended up in HK.
Do you think a machine like the Decent can satisfy both the coffee nerd and the button pusher crowds? How do you communicate effectively to groups with such differences in knowledge and tolerance for inconvenience while making the best espresso possible under those constraints?
Nespresso did us all a favor by upping the bar on what “acceptable” is. When I bought my Rocket E61, virtually all my espressos were worse than Nespresso. Super autos, I think, generally make worse coffee than Nespresso. If they want convenient, no fuss, just get a Nespresso, that's what it's made for.
As to “why Decent?” for espresso noobs, I'd say
If your friends want to keep their spending down, get them a Niche, and a Flair or Robot. It's a bit of a cleaning/prep fuss, but not too bad and the coffee is soooooooo much better than Nespresso or virtually all E61 shots.
Ideal pressure and water temperature for a light roasted Ethiopian?
Please read my article on picking recipes: https://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/decent- espresso-news-t66649-160.html#p760073
What do you like to do when you aren't thinking about coffee?
Nowadays, in order to not burn out from the entrepreneur (in a foreign city) thing, weekends are for deep 8h hikes into the jungle mountain parks, with a picnic. There are wild streams everywhere, and as long as you check it for snakes, they're safe. :-D
I used to cook a LOT, and for a few years had been slowly working on a cookbook about raw seafood recipes around the world, with the ironic book title of “Cold Fish”. Moving to HK, I now live in a micro-apartment, and have given that up, which I miss the most. I used to spend 3 months obsessing about some food, such as the perfect french fry (I have a deep fat fryer) or the perfect poached egg.
Do you see a future of fully automatic machines for the home user which can do just as well as current top end “manual” espresso machines for an affordable price, and if so when? What are your thoughts on such a change?
We're a loooong time from that happening.
Here' the reason: “fully automatic” makers ask themselves “how good can I make a coffee? but it has to be fully automated” whereas I ask myself “how good can I make a coffee?”. The limit that places on your thinking is massive.
We are currently so far from understanding how to consistently make a great drink, and that's with the best gear in the world, the best and most talented roasters and baristas, that we can't even train other great baristas how to do it well. That problem: how super talented people can do something well with consistency, needs to be solved before we can think about automating it. I'm not sure we'll ever get there, honestly. My feeling is fully automated coffee will always be inferior, and it's just a question of how much more inferior you're willing to settle for.
Does coming from a Flair ease up the learning curve? Or will I have to develop a new set of intuitions and heuristics?
Having used the Flair, you should now have an good understanding of how pressure should be lowered as the shot progresses, and you should have some muscle memory that lets you keep flow more or less constant as the shot progresses. You also know that if you grind finer, you'll need less pressure to compensate for that, but that technique can work great for lighter roasts. All that Flair knowledge will translate directly into the Decent. You won't have anything to unlearn.
How much benefit did you get out of the ZPM tech you acquired? How strongly did their ideas influence there Decent designs? What sort of take-up on the discount offer to Kickstarter backers did you get? Did you keep any ongoing relationship with Zeb and Igor?
We didn't end up using any technology, code or IP of ZPMs. Except for how their approach (technology applied to coffee) first enticed me. Probably the biggest influence ZPM had was to drive home home UL safety compliance should be thought about at Day One, and not as an afterthought, as that was probably the biggest mistake ZPM made.
Because of ZPM's experience, I hired Intertek as consultants for years, to advise us on our design as we progressed. And even then we had UL problems due to the tablet <sigh>.
But we passed all the other UL tests, and their input throughout had a massive effect on the final safety of the DE1. And yeah, we got a pretty good takeup from ZPM owners. Maybe 50 ZPMers bought a DE1, and we still to this day hear from ZPMers who now want to upgrade their espresso setup.
How's Magnatune going?
If you don't know Kavekalmar's coffee videos, I highly recommend them, such as the amazing ROASTED video : https://vimeo.com/112575328 - another reason I mention them is that there's Magnatune music often in his vids. Magnatune will continue to live on, but doesn't make any money. However, the same music is sold to video pros via http://ilicensemusic.com/ and that still does well, and pays musicians a bit, which especially helps during these COVID times.
Thanks everyone for asking me great questions on this AMA.
It's been two hours, and my hands are shaking from not having had an espresso yet this morning. Bye bye! Gotta satisfy my fix!